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  1. #1
    Meeshoo Guest

    Default ? for Gav - Shimoyo Treatments

    Hi Gav

    Can you clarify what treatments have been applied to the Shimoyo Rubellite range please? I notice on the enhancement page it indicates heating / irradiation / filling etc. Whilst I appreciate the details on the enhancements page is a "one size fits all" for Tourmaline, as it doesn't state "natural" I'm presuming at least one of these treatments has been applied? This would also explain why the Shimoyo's clarity is so good.

    Thanks for your advice.



         

    Meesh x

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  3. #2
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    Sorry to pre-empt your response Gaz, But if for example filling has been applied to Shimoyo Rubellite, does that in any way affect the value of the gemstone?

    Thanks.
    Last edited by Tabs; 04-05-2009 at 01:04 PM.

  4. #3
    Meeshoo Guest

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    Tabs I can unequivocally say that it would but will be interested to hear what Gav says. Treatments of any kind will have an affect on price. There are unheated/untreated Rubellites of fabulous quality readily available.

  5. #4
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    Hi Everyone:

    Shimoyo’s clarity has nothing to do with enhancements.

    While the vast majority of Shimoyo Rubellite is ‘natural’ (not enhanced or treated in any way), approximately 10 percent has been irradiated to improve their colour only. Please note that irradiated Tourmaline is almost impossible to detect and thus there is generally no price difference for this enhancement.

    While enhancements of any kind will have an affect on price, there is a big proviso - they must be readily detectable. Only one trade pricing resource recommends discounting irradiated Rubellite, which in my mind is a classic gemmological catch-22: if you can’t detect it, how can you discount it? While good primary sources like we have give you accurate enhancement information, the up to seven supply tiers in the typical gemstone transaction can see information (either unintentionally or deliberately) lost or diluted. Once again, an ‘always assume enhancements’ proviso is good advice.

    Most Rubellite is going to have eye-visible inclusions; although this can vary a little from locale to locale (i.e. Shimoyo Rubellite is blessed with an exceptional clarity for this variety). Because of these inclusions, heating Rubellite can sometimes cause them to expand, fracturing and/or cracking the gemstone. This is why some Pink Tourmaline and Rubellite is irradiated rather than heated to improve colour.

    For simplicity, the details on the enhancements page is often a ‘one size fits all’. To assist all our customers, I have added the above online http://www.rocksandco.com/library/ge...nhancement.asp. If anyone would like to learn more about Shimoyo Rubellite in general, try this page http://www.rocksandco.com/gzine/shimoyo.asp.

    I hope this helps and as always, please let me know if I can be of any further assistance.

    Kind Regards,

    Gav

  6. #5
    Meeshoo Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemstone Gav View Post
    Hi Everyone:

    Shimoyo’s clarity has nothing to do with enhancements.

    While the vast majority of Shimoyo Rubellite is ‘natural’ (not enhanced or treated in any way), approximately 10 percent has been irradiated to improve their colour only. Please note that irradiated Tourmaline is almost impossible to detect and thus there is generally no price difference for this enhancement.

    While enhancements of any kind will have an affect on price, there is a big proviso - they must be readily detectable. Only one trade pricing resource recommends discounting irradiated Rubellite, which in my mind is a classic gemmological catch-22: if you can’t detect it, how can you discount it? While good primary sources like we have give you accurate enhancement information, the up to seven supply tiers in the typical gemstone transaction can see information (either unintentionally or deliberately) lost or diluted. Once again, an ‘always assume enhancements’ proviso is good advice.

    Most Rubellite is going to have eye-visible inclusions; although this can vary a little from locale to locale (i.e. Shimoyo Rubellite is blessed with an exceptional clarity for this variety). Because of these inclusions, heating Rubellite can sometimes cause them to expand, fracturing and/or cracking the gemstone. This is why some Pink Tourmaline and Rubellite is irradiated rather than heated to improve colour.

    For simplicity, the details on the enhancements page is often a ‘one size fits all’. To assist all our customers, I have added the above online http://www.rocksandco.com/library/ge...nhancement.asp. If anyone would like to learn more about Shimoyo Rubellite in general, try this page http://www.rocksandco.com/gzine/shimoyo.asp.

    I hope this helps and as always, please let me know if I can be of any further assistance.

    Kind Regards,

    Gav
    Hi Gav

    Thank you for your comprehensive answer.

    Unfortunately we have to (again) agree to disagree! If I were to buy Shimoyo Rubellite I would want to be guaranteed that I got one of the 90% untreated gemstones. As you've said that it's good practice to assume enhancements (and I agree with that wholeheartedly), if I DON'T want an enhanced gemstone, there's no way I could guarantee getting that with Shimoyo.

    In terms of irradiation, whilst it may be undetectable, there is an onus on the seller (and the buyer if he/she is bothered) to ask and make disclaimers as such. That way, if they take a gemstone to be valued, they can answer the valuer when he/she asks about treatments. The Clever Gemstone Buyer (sorry to use your title) will ALWAYS ask about treatments so that he/she knows (a) what they're getting and (b) if the price is right.

    In terms of pricing and irradiation - we agree that it does affect price. Where we differ is that it should be detectable to affect price. I don't believe that to be correct (sorry). My example would be irradiated green diamonds that are treated to get the colour green in the same way that natural green diamonds get their colour in nature i.e. the irradiation can't be detected by a gem lab. Does that mean that we should discount the irradiation and call them natural green diamonds and price them the same way? No and the GIA agrees on this. They are irradiated. They should NOT be priced in the same way.

    Whilst there are a host of gemstones where some treatments are accepted i.e. Citrine, Tanzanite, blue Topaz etc., Tourmaline is NOT one of those (with the exception of Paraiba).

    My only defence of treated gemstones is to say that more often than not they can produce a much more beautiful gemstone than nature can. However, for me, and this is personal, I have to balance this with "do I want an artificially tampered with" gemstone or something that nature made. Nature wins for me - especially when I can get something at the same price!

    As I said, many thanks for your explanation and taking the time to alter the enhancements page. It's best for buyers to be aware and then make an informed choice and you've certainly helped in that. Thank you.

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meeshoo View Post
    Hi Gav
    Unfortunately we have to (again) agree to disagree! If I were to buy Shimoyo Rubellite I would want to be guaranteed that I got one of the 90% untreated gemstones. As you've said that it's good practice to assume enhancements (and I agree with that wholeheartedly), if I DON'T want an enhanced gemstone, there's no way I could guarantee getting that with Shimoyo.
    I saw a totally gorgeous Shimoyo Rubellite ring last night and was thinking about calling today to order it, as it didn't appear to sell in the auction. I agree with Meeshoo, if it can't be guaranteed that you're going to get one of the 90% untreated stones, then I'd rather source one elsewhere. It's such a shame because I really loved that ring! The good news is that I now can go and buy an unheated, untreated colour change sapphire instead. :-)

  8. #7
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    Hello all. Been looking at these threads for a while and thought I'd chime in with a question, so I'm going to bump this thread to the top of the pile, because Gav didn't answer the question about treatment of the Shimoyo.

    My sister-in-law bought an amazing Shimoyo ring last - over 9 cts, (621447) but is now having second thoughts when I mentioned that it could be treated for colour. The question I would ask Gav is this: would a piece in the One collection, sold at a premium price, be irridated for colour? You say that 90% of pieces are not treated in any way, therefore presumably au naturel, but would a piece sold in the One collection be assured of not being treated?

    Thank you.

    KunziteLiz

  9. #8
    Meeshoo Guest

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    KunziteLiz - great question and welcome to the forum!

    One other question you may want to ask is whether the gem is heated. On the enhancements page it says "natural" or "irradiated" but I suspect that even the "natural" gemstones are heated - or a good proportion are. This is also an enhancement. Heating is generally more accepted as it replicates what the earth can/might do. However, purists who prefer gemstones to be "au natural" may also have a problem with that.

    Unfortunately, I don't think that a gemstone being in the One Collection reflects whether treatments have been applied or not. In fact, I'd be surprised if this were the case.

    I do hope your sister gets a resolution. If you've been reading this forum for very long you'll know that we have a mantra that "when in doubt, send it back"!

    Hope this helps.

  10. #9
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    Hello Everyone:

    As many of you know, Rocks & Co. is comprised of a group of internationally respected gemstone experts with a long history trading gemstones.

    Our enhancements policy (i.e. “always assume enhancements when purchasing our gemstone jewellery”) accepts the simple reality that the vast majority of gemstones are enhanced and that many of these are undetectable. Nevertheless, undetectable enhancements should still be known and disclosed.

    We did not differentiate between natural and irradiated material for Shimoyo Rubellite because it’s non detectable and in our experience, doesn’t impact on marketplace prices. In the case of colour enhanced Green Diamonds, this enhancement is detectable and as result, affects price.

    When enhanced gems are undetectable, some companies will market them as natural. As a business and as individuals, we always take the high ground and disclose all the enhancements applied to the gemstones we sell http://www.rocksandco.com/library/ge...nhancement.asp.

    Thank you KunziteLiz for giving me the opportunity to clarify the above.

    Kind Regards,

    Gav

  11. #10
    Meeshoo Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemstone Gav View Post
    Hello Everyone:

    As many of you know, Rocks & Co. is comprised of a group of internationally respected gemstone experts with a long history trading gemstones.

    Our enhancements policy (i.e. “always assume enhancements when purchasing our gemstone jewellery”) accepts the simple reality that the vast majority of gemstones are enhanced and that many of these are undetectable. Nevertheless, undetectable enhancements should still be known and disclosed.

    We did not differentiate between natural and irradiated material for Shimoyo Rubellite because it’s non detectable and in our experience, doesn’t impact on marketplace prices. In the case of colour enhanced Green Diamonds, this enhancement is detectable and as result, affects price.

    When enhanced gems are undetectable, some companies will market them as natural. As a business and as individuals, we always take the high ground and disclose all the enhancements applied to the gemstones we sell http://www.rocksandco.com/library/ge...nhancement.asp.

    Thank you KunziteLiz for giving me the opportunity to clarify the above.

    Kind Regards,

    Gav
    Gav - please clarify the statement with regards to Green Diamonds. My understanding is that the GIA will NOT certify a green diamond as natural without seeing and assessing the rough. HPHT/irradiation is not detectable but coating obviously is.

    In terms of businesses marketing enhanced gems as "natural" - please can you clarify who? That would be in the interests of every jewellery collector on this forum.

    Thanks

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