Julia asking folk to text their 'forename'

[Pinkpussycat]

"young women pontificating about equality". I fear you are not seeing the bigger picture when you say being treated as a second class citizen is worth not having to wait an extra 4 years to receive your bread-line state pension, but enough. I think we can conclude women of my generation and women of your generation see themselves and their role in society very differently and we'll leave it at that.

Well you are wrong WR. I have never allowed myself to be treated as a second class citizen in the workplace or anywhere else and I certainly have never subjugated myself to any man or relied on one for financial security, so as far as I am concerned I have always been equal. Our differing views on pension rights have nothing to do with 'my generation' (or about yours) it's about what is fair and after working all of my adult life I am ****** pi$$ed off that I have to wait another 4 years for a pension that I have paid into for 40 years. Simple as that.

 

[White Russian]

Again, I think the proper argument is that everyone should get their pension earlier, not that women need to be singled out as a special case. I don't mind what the retirement age is, I just think it should be the same for everyone. If it isn't, then it's harder to argue for equality in other areas of work.

If you've suffered no prejudice during your working life and have had the same opportunities and promotions as your male colleagues, been paid the same salary and so on then that's great. People don't openly talk about pay etc but all the studies still show that women get paid less than men for the same work and don't get the promotions that men do. It's not about allowing yourself be treated as a second class citizen, it's about the reality of the working world. In my workplace we employ more women than men. But less than 10% of the senior positions are held by women, while the vast majority of low-pay admin, cleaning and secretarial roles are all done by women. I don't accept women aren't as bright or able as men (girls have got better school grades than boys for about 15 years) so something's not right there and it's true of almost all private sector companies.

 

[White Russian]

I think we can conclude that's rather a sweeping generalisation isn't it?

No, I don't think so. Society is changing so much and values and attitudes are changing all the time that I don't think the women of generation x see themselves in the same way the baby boomers did. I think the women of generation y would hardly recognise themselves in their grandmothers and the grandmothers would barely recognise their life compared to their granddaughters. The same is also true of men. I don't think the male 20-somethings of today have much in common with their grandfathers generation.

 

[HoodedClaw]

I think that women should have the same ri9ghts to do any job men do, for the same pay, and for as long as they want to do it.

As long as they remember to make my tea and do the washing and housework.

*ducks*

:smirk:

 

[fletchie]

Sadly Mike, when the last of us baby-boomers has gone, the country will be in a ****** awful state!

There is still hope...I am 39, christened and was brought up to respect my elders. As a child my father used to quote 'little girls should be seen and not heard' to me and even now, I wouldn't dream of back answering my father even if I don't agree. So, some old fashioned values do still exist and I would be another to turn the clock back to the days when men could earn a decent salary for a mother to stay home and raise a family instead of the kids around now who have never known mom be home before or after school. Not all progress has been for the benefit for society in my opinion.

Every generation hopefully takes the best from the past and learns how to be better for the future. I really believe there are many more important issues to resolve in society and using a phrase, however outdated it may seem, really pales into insignificance compared to the other crap going on in our communities.

 

[Frazzled]

No, I don't think so. Society is changing so much and values and attitudes are changing all the time that I don't think the women of generation x see themselves in the same way the baby boomers did. I think the women of generation y would hardly recognise themselves in their grandmothers and the grandmothers would barely recognise their life compared to their granddaughters. The same is also true of men. I don't think the male 20-somethings of today have much in common with their grandfathers generation.

Really. I don't know when you think modern society arrived or what experience you base your comments on, but what you say may well have been relevant to generations a few decades ago.

Myself and a number of friends, have been in careers longer than you've been alive. My line manager was the first person in the organisation not to have leave employment when she became pregnant.. So for the best part of forty years several of us have worked full time with people of all ages, most of whom were also raising families, through the ever-changing employment practices and rapid social change. Whilst the methods and ideas are obviously different between generations, the role in society does not seem that different to me - working hard and raising the next generation.

My experience is people in their fifties and sixties today are very different to those in the past. We have plenty in common with younger people through music, internet, travelling etc. We have kept up with change, no choice really, and with a bit of luck we may be able to influence current values and attitudes for the better.

Anyway, keep working hard for our bread-line state pensions, we'll be relying on you. Probably won't even exist for you in another 30-40 years.

 

[Flamenco]

I can't believe a return to "a woman's place is in the kitchen" is being advocated here. Where's the solidarity amongst us women? I'm a professional woman and a mother. No way do I want my daughter growing up being led to believe that the extent of her future lies with being chained to the kitchen, having babies and waiting hand on foot for her hard-working husband. Some of the views here, expressed by women, want to put us back a hundred years.


Sent from my iPad2 using Tapatalk

 

[BusyMum]

Again, I think the proper argument is that everyone should get their pension earlier, not that women need to be singled out as a special case. I don't mind what the retirement age is, I just think it should be the same for everyone. If it isn't, then it's harder to argue for equality in other areas of work.

If you've suffered no prejudice during your working life and have had the same opportunities and promotions as your male colleagues, been paid the same salary and so on then that's great. People don't openly talk about pay etc but all the studies still show that women get paid less than men for the same work and don't get the promotions that men do. It's not about allowing yourself be treated as a second class citizen, it's about the reality of the working world. In my workplace we employ more women than men. But less than 10% of the senior positions are held by women, while the vast majority of low-pay admin, cleaning and secretarial roles are all done by women. I don't accept women aren't as bright or able as men (girls have got better school grades than boys for about 15 years) so something's not right there and it's true of almost all private sector companies.

you're reminding me of Harriet Har-person - I don't think anyone minds having women bosses, directors, whatever else AS LONG AS THEY CAN DO THE JOB AND AREN'T THERE JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE WOMEN! Perhaps your place of work has round pegs in round holes? Often women are better at the perceived "mundane" jobs in admin/secretarial...power behind the throne type thing? I was a secretary to two MDs..yes I made the tea and other "lowly" tasks, but I had a good job, I loved it, was well paid and I didn't at all feel that I was inferior, a second-class employee or anything else - I think life - and work - is what you make it.

 

[White Russian]

There is still hope...I am 39, christened and was brought up to respect my elders. As a child my father used to quote 'little girls should be seen and not heard' to me and even now, I wouldn't dream of back answering my father even if I don't agree. So, some old fashioned values do still exist and I would be another to turn the clock back to the days when men could earn a decent salary for a mother to stay home and raise a family instead of the kids around now who have never known mom be home before or after school. Not all progress has been for the benefit for society in my opinion.

QUOTE]

I think it's healthier for both boys and girls to grow up in a household where they see both parents work and have their independence.

 

[fletchie]

Every job or role, if well done, has dignity. Whether it be somebody who makes the tea or makes the decisions.

Whether we like it or not, women cannot have their cake and eat it. I have friends with kids who have no choice but to work to put food on the table. My 14 year god daughter has never known her mom be there when she gets home from school. A work colleague is back at work full time after giving birth 6 months ago - is the dream you have for your daughters and grandkids where they are either in a nursery or home alone, or for some, on the ****** streets? Where is the equality in this for the kids? I am probably the tail end of the generation who had a stay at home mom and had tea on the table, a well run house and someone always there. Why are women made to feel inferior if they don't have a career and kids? Sorry, kids should come first if you are blessed to have them. Bugger work - it'll still be there long after you and I have departed this world. Its a sad world when society says a mother's role is secondary to a job.

 

[White Russian]

[/COLOR]

you're reminding me of Harriet Har-person - I don't think anyone minds having women bosses, directors, whatever else AS LONG AS THEY CAN DO THE JOB AND AREN'T THERE JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE WOMEN! Perhaps your place of work has round pegs in round holes? Often women are better at the perceived "mundane" jobs in admin/secretarial...power behind the throne type thing? I was a secretary to two MDs..yes I made the tea and other "lowly" tasks, but I had a good job, I loved it, was well paid and I didn't at all feel that I was inferior, a second-class employee or anything else - I think life - and work - is what you make it.

So even though girls seem to be brighter than boys at school and now get better degrees too, you still believe women are more suited to what you call mundane jobs? And why assume if a woman is promoted it's a PC exercise and not on merit? How disappointing to hear all this from another woman.

 

[fletchie]

There is still hope...I am 39, christened and was brought up to respect my elders. As a child my father used to quote 'little girls should be seen and not heard' to me and even now, I wouldn't dream of back answering my father even if I don't agree. So, some old fashioned values do still exist and I would be another to turn the clock back to the days when men could earn a decent salary for a mother to stay home and raise a family instead of the kids around now who have never known mom be home before or after school. Not all progress has been for the benefit for society in my opinion.

QUOTE]

I think it's healthier for both boys and girls to grow up in a household where they see both parents work and have their independence.

Really? Ask the kids who don't have a parent home before or after school, at tea times because they are out at work. Do you not think kids miss their parents? Having a family unit which gives them the belief and confidence that they can achieve is far more important. Perhaps we wouldn't have so many feral kids if both parents weren't forced into working all the hours god sends. There should be a healthy balance somewhere.

 

[BusyMum]

So even though girls seem to be brighter than boys at school and now get better degrees too, you still believe women are more suited to what you call mundane jobs? And why assume if a woman is promoted it's a PC exercise and not on merit? How disappointing to hear all this from another woman.

you need to be a round peg in a round hole - if you enjoy doing what you're doing, in my book that's the main thing. I don't like to be judgemental but you do seem to have an idealised view of things - so what if you are subordinate to someone else in your job? You've heard the saying "too many chiefs and not enough indians"? We can't all be the boss - someone has to be be the backroom boy or girl - there aren't enough jobs and I quite honestly don't give a monkey's if I'd worked for a man or a woman, as long as that person respected me and appreciated me for what I did..I really don't get your take on this!

 

[White Russian]

Really. I don't know when you think modern society arrived or what experience you base your comments on, but what you say may well have been relevant to generations a few decades ago.

Myself and a number of friends, have been in careers longer than you've been alive. My line manager was the first person in the organisation not to have leave employment when she became pregnant.. So for the best part of forty years several of us have worked full time with people of all ages, most of whom were also raising families, through the ever-changing employment practices and rapid social change. Whilst the methods and ideas are obviously different between generations, the role in society does not seem that different to me - working hard and raising the next generation.

My experience is people in their fifties and sixties today are very different to those in the past. We have plenty in common with younger people through music, internet, travelling etc. We have kept up with change, no choice really, and with a bit of luck we may be able to influence current values and attitudes for the better.

My comments are true of any generation. If your boss was the first women not to have to give up work when she got pregnant then presumably in your grandmothers and mothers age it was assumed (and considered desirable?) that women gave up work when they got pregnant. To be honest, the fact that you had a career is probably alien to your grandmother. The change comes with every generation, it's constant.

 

[fletchie]

So even though girls seem to be brighter than boys at school and now get better degrees too, you still believe women are more suited to what you call mundane jobs? And why assume if a woman is promoted it's a PC exercise and not on merit? How disappointing to hear all this from another woman.

I work in construction - women are accepted into this industry because it ticks the right boxes not because the men particularly want us in it. It is a PC exercise unfortunately and all the spin in the world won't make every job equal to both sexes.

 

[LipstickCherry]

I can't believe a return to "a woman's place is in the kitchen" is being advocated here. Where's the solidarity amongst us women? I'm a professional woman and a mother. No way do I want my daughter growing up being led to believe that the extent of her future lies with being chained to the kitchen, having babies and waiting hand on foot for her hard-working husband. Some of the views here, expressed by women, want to put us back a hundred years.


Sent from my iPad2 using Tapatalk

My goodness, this phrase really riles me. "Solidarity amongst women?" Just because we are all the same gender, doesn't mean we all think the same way. We are INDIVIDUALS, as can be seen from the wide range of opinions in this thread.

 

[StumpyBloke]

So even though girls seem to be brighter than boys at school and now get better degrees too, you still believe women are more suited to what you call mundane jobs? And why assume if a woman is promoted it's a PC exercise and not on merit? How disappointing to hear all this from another woman.

She didn't say more suited, she said often better, and also, no where did BM assume it was a PC exercise!!!! She said as long as the job is given on merit...and that's how it should be!

 

[White Russian]

you need to be a round peg in a round hole - if you enjoy doing what you're doing, in my book that's the main thing. I don't like to be judgemental but you do seem to have an idealised view of things - so what if you are subordinate to someone else in your job? You've heard the saying "too many chiefs and not enough indians"? We can't all be the boss - someone has to be be the backroom boy or girl - there aren't enough jobs and I quite honestly don't give a monkey's if I'd worked for a man or a woman, as long as that person respected me and appreciated me for what I did..I really don't get your take on this!

I don't think it's idealised to want women to be able to do the well paid jobs men have historically done. Not everyone enjoys what you call the mundane jobs (but job satisfaction is everything, I agree). Of course there is a hierarchy at work but why should it be based on gender? For the record, I don't have a chip on my shoulder because I'm the backroom girl - I have a good job (I'm a lawyer) but I find it depressing that women are not well represented in senior roles but are very over-represented in the low skilled, poorly-paid jobs.

 

[StumpyBloke]

Anyway you lot, know your place... it's the kitchen! I want me tea!!

 

[BusyMum]

Anyway you lot, know your place... it's the kitchen! I want me tea!!

how many sugars my cherub??!