Gamages of London

[Hammy60]

No disrespect meant to anyone but here's a good rule of thumb to follow when watching selly telly regardless of channel, product or presenter.

Take every single thing you see and hear them spout with a HUGE pinch of salt.

That way you hopefully won't go far wrong.

And in the case of the shysters Papa & Baby i would replace HUGE pinch with a Salt Mine worth.

This is all i'm going to say on the subject, this has been done to death so many times, there is sod all graphics designing going on in GADD House, all they do is pick from available options being offered by the Chinese manufacturers/wholesalers. £99 is not a reasonable price, retail for Gamages/S & E quality watches (with the exception of the slightly dearer Tourbillon) in the Chinese market (or to the UK) is between £20-£30 anybody paying over £50 for one of these needs their head examined. OH and the Anthony James quality are in the £10-£15 range direct from China.

Oh and why were we sure that the Chinese watch (Swan & Edgar Complexity) that Swan & Edgar had claimed took 6 months to design before releasing on IW, that's is because the feedback/revues on Ali showed it had been on Sale for a few years before S & E had even started designing it.

Also think we need to separate Earnshaw (and it's sister brands/ranges) from Gamages etc, Earnshaw is a better quality watch, not a lot, but better and probably worth near the value it was sold on IW, although worth nowhere near the silly RRPs. The difference between the two is Fields Luxury buy their watches from Chinese wholesalers/manufacturers, Earnshaw (or the company behind the range) is a Chinese watch wholesaler/manufacturer.
PS
I say range as Earnshaw to me isn't a brand, they aren't a separate entity, they like Nubeo, AVI-8, Cadola, Mainspring etc are all designed in the same offices in Kowloon, and their webs sites are all administered by the same few folks in the same office in London at their distributing/marketing company, The Dartmouth Brands. Yeah they've all separate web sites with separate stories etc, but they are all run from the same offices, and sales and revenue appear on the same account/balance sheet, there are no separate sales/revenue figures for the individual so called brands.

 

[PhaedrusR]

Oh and why were we sure that the Chinese watch (Swan & Edgar Complexity) that Swan & Edgar had claimed took 6 months to design before releasing on IW, that's is because the feedback/revues on Ali showed it had been on Sale for a few years before S & E had even started designing it.

Thanks @Hammy60. That's the sort of evidence I hadn't seen mentioned recently (that IW thread is so long and I only joined on page 990+!) and is a clincher for me.

Presumably there are Chinese watch manufacturers you can request a design or custom build using catalogue of pre-made movements components, a sort of permutation of movement, case then facia/dials that fit the movement and branding, they then knock up and manufacture a run. Possibly explaining the Limited edition series descriptions. That would explain the higher prices where they get them made for a bit more at cost and so then sell at multiples to make a profit.

 

[Professor Branestawm]

My only query, when AFields says design takes a year, etc. is are we sure the watches are not designed and requested to be made by Gamages/Swan & Edgar, i.e. commissioned by UK, manufactured by the Chinese and the Chinese then put their own Chinese logos on the watches for their internal market.
Could it be that way round?

Do we know for sure the watches already exist and just have logo/crown/strap printed for UK resellers, out of an oem watch catalogue?!? And not made to order and resold in China?

I guess it’s possible. But it’s not likely. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen some watches available for drop shipping that have later appeared with the S&E logo. At any rate, that’s the usual business model of many Chinese manufacturers.
That, plus creating watches that when I’m asked to repair or service them, I have to find ways to tell the buyer that they are, essentially, valueless. My usual repair is to hope the mechanism still exists and just drop a new one in.
I think the point about ‘if you like the look and the price then go for it’ is a valid one. My personal dislike is that this is not the basis upon which they are sold, with so many mentions of ‘heirloom’, ‘timepiece’ and ‘getting them insured separately’. The vast majority of these mechanisms are poorly made and, especially, poorly finished. I regularly see jewels swamped in oil, or with no oil at all, fingerprints on the bridges or rotor, hairs in the mechanism, and in one notable case actual shims. I can normally get them keeping good time, but without a proper clean and service, they tend to drift away from that. Add to that the non-availability of spares within a few years and they are generally thought to be valueless.
if you are happy to buy a watch to use day to day, fir a good low price and to keep fir a few years, these brands can be just the ticket. But they will never, ever, be heirlooms.

Thanks @Hammy60. That's the sort of evidence I hadn't seen mentioned recently (that IW thread is so long and I only joined on page 990+!) and is a clincher for me.

Presumably there are Chinese watch manufacturers you can request a design or custom build using catalogue of pre-made movements components, a sort of permutation of movement, case then facia/dials that fit the movement and branding, they then knock up and manufacture a run. Possibly explaining the Limited edition series descriptions. That would explain the higher prices where they get them made for a bit more at cost and so then sell at multiples to make a profit.

There are indeed!

And in the case of the shysters Papa & Baby i would replace HUGE pinch with a Salt Mine worth.

This is all i'm going to say on the subject, this has been done to death so many times, there is sod all graphics designing going on in GADD House, all they do is pick from available options being offered by the Chinese manufacturers/wholesalers. £99 is not a reasonable price, retail for Gamages/S & E quality watches (with the exception of the slightly dearer Tourbillon) in the Chinese market (or to the UK) is between £20-£30 anybody paying over £50 for one of these needs their head examined. OH and the Anthony James quality are in the £10-£15 range direct from China.

Oh and why were we sure that the Chinese watch (Swan & Edgar Complexity) that Swan & Edgar had claimed took 6 months to design before releasing on IW, that's is because the feedback/revues on Ali showed it had been on Sale for a few years before S & E had even started designing it.

Also think we need to separate Earnshaw (and it's sister brands/ranges) from Gamages etc, Earnshaw is a better quality watch, not a lot, but better and probably worth near the value it was sold on IW, although worth nowhere near the silly RRPs. The difference between the two is Fields Luxury buy their watches from Chinese wholesalers/manufacturers, Earnshaw (or the company behind the range) is a Chinese watch wholesaler/manufacturer.
PS
I say range as Earnshaw to me isn't a brand, they aren't a separate entity, they like Nubeo, AVI-8, Cadola, Mainspring etc are all designed in the same offices in Kowloon, and their webs sites are all administered by the same few folks in the same office in London at their distributing/marketing company, The Dartmouth Brands. Yeah they've all separate web sites with separate stories etc, but they are all run from the same offices, and sales and revenue appear on the same account/balance sheet, there are no separate sales/revenue figures for the individual so called brands.

Remember that one of those brands ‘ResultCo’ used to be quite open about their business model - quote an ‘optimistic’ price on their materials in the expectation that the vendor would then deeply discount that price to give the semblance of value.
I still have the screenshots somewhere with it stated, bold as brass.
Of course, it was a business model founded in the UK (based on the American brands such as Louis Bolle) by Klaus Kobec and Zeitner, though those were usually quartz and Swiss ETA mechanisms. Looking at the ex directors of Klaus Kobec is instructive….

 

[Hammy60]

Remember that one of those brands ‘ResultCo’ used to be quite open about their business model - quote an ‘optimistic’ price on their materials in the expectation that the vendor would then deeply discount that price to give the semblance of value.
I still have the screenshots somewhere with it stated, bold as brass.
Of course, it was a business model founded in the UK (based on the American brands such as Louis Bolle) by Klaus Kobec and Zeitner, though those were usually quartz and Swiss ETA mechanisms. Looking at the ex directors of Klaus Kobec is instructive….

Yeah, that would be Jeff Freedman,

"We prefer to limit distribution with our desire to become a ‘house’ brand for the retailer. We want our dealer base to make a profit. We accept the consumer’s psychology of never buying a product at retail regardless of brand. Today’s consumer needs to satisfy their mental state to want a discount when making a purchase. To aid the retailer we enhance the retail price with an expectation that the dealer will discount at purchase."

Speaking of Klaus Kobec, I had a Klaus Kobec Aberdeen Football Club watch back in the day, before the legal dust up between Cohen (Director of Klaus Kobec Ltd, selling the football watches) and Antoni Fields over the use of the Klaus Kobec name and which Chinese watch manufacturer they should be buying from etc, put the football watch business into admin. Watches were cheap alloy cased, plating would start wearing off after a year, but they were just more of a fun watch rather than for collecting, but they were very popular before their demise.

These are the folks that used to manufacture/supply the Klaus Kobec Football watches, and other brands Fields was involved with back then.

Gold Super International Limited | HKTDC Sourcing

Verified and credible Gold Super International Limited company overview, qualified supplier, trader, manufacturer, vendor, distributor providing products and services on HKTDC Sourcing

sourcing.hktdc.com

PS

My Club now use Sekonda branded watches.

 

[Hammy60]

I guess it’s possible. But it’s not likely. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen some watches available for drop shipping that have later appeared with the S&E logo. At any rate, that’s the usual business model of many Chinese manufacturers.
That, plus creating watches that when I’m asked to repair or service them, I have to find ways to tell the buyer that they are, essentially, valueless. My usual repair is to hope the mechanism still exists and just drop a new one in.
I think the point about ‘if you like the look and the price then go for it’ is a valid one. My personal dislike is that this is not the basis upon which they are sold, with so many mentions of ‘heirloom’, ‘timepiece’ and ‘getting them insured separately’. The vast majority of these mechanisms are poorly made and, especially, poorly finished. I regularly see jewels swamped in oil, or with no oil at all, fingerprints on the bridges or rotor, hairs in the mechanism, and in one notable case actual shims. I can normally get them keeping good time, but without a proper clean and service, they tend to drift away from that. Add to that the non-availability of spares within a few years and they are generally thought to be valueless.
if you are happy to buy a watch to use day to day, fir a good low price and to keep fir a few years, these brands can be just the ticket. But they will never, ever, be heirlooms.

It's amazing what you see when you watch folks on youtube disassembling some of these movements, as you say fingerprints, scratches, hairs etc, but then it ain't surprising when you see their origin, and i've seen way worse than this, also interesting to get a quick sight of an AVI-8 Flyboy in this.

Of course we should add that there are really good watchmakers in China, they just don't appear on shopping TV here.

 

[PhaedrusR]

It's amazing what you see when you watch folks on youtube disassembling some of these movements, as you say fingerprints, scratches, hairs etc, but then it ain't surprising when you see their origin, and i've seen way worse than this, also interesting to get a quick sight of an AVI-8 Flyboy in this.

Of course we should add that there are really good watchmakers in China, they just don't appear on shopping TV here.

Yeah, I like the IWC lookalike. Shame it wasn't automatic.
I skimmed through, at one point he says "we're making this for an American company, they want...". Thousands made.
More hand-assembled, no robot production line.

 

[cheeky chappie]

And in the case of the shysters Papa & Baby i would replace HUGE pinch with a Salt Mine worth.

This is all i'm going to say on the subject, this has been done to death so many times, there is sod all graphics designing going on in GADD House, all they do is pick from available options being offered by the Chinese manufacturers/wholesalers. £99 is not a reasonable price, retail for Gamages/S & E quality watches (with the exception of the slightly dearer Tourbillon) in the Chinese market (or to the UK) is between £20-£30 anybody paying over £50 for one of these needs their head examined. OH and the Anthony James quality are in the £10-£15 range direct from China.

Oh and why were we sure that the Chinese watch (Swan & Edgar Complexity) that Swan & Edgar had claimed took 6 months to design before releasing on IW, that's is because the feedback/revues on Ali showed it had been on Sale for a few years before S & E had even started designing it.

Also think we need to separate Earnshaw (and it's sister brands/ranges) from Gamages etc, Earnshaw is a better quality watch, not a lot, but better and probably worth near the value it was sold on IW, although worth nowhere near the silly RRPs. The difference between the two is Fields Luxury buy their watches from Chinese wholesalers/manufacturers, Earnshaw (or the company behind the range) is a Chinese watch wholesaler/manufacturer.
PS
I say range as Earnshaw to me isn't a brand, they aren't a separate entity, they like Nubeo, AVI-8, Cadola, Mainspring etc are all designed in the same offices in Kowloon, and their webs sites are all administered by the same few folks in the same office in London at their distributing/marketing company, The Dartmouth Brands. Yeah they've all separate web sites with separate stories etc, but they are all run from the same offices, and sales and revenue appear on the same account/balance sheet, there are no separate sales/revenue figures for the individual so called brands.

We're selling you this watch for £199.99
You're saving £300 because it has an RRP of £499.99
To be honest with you, if it was for sale at £999.99 it would still be a great deal

Peel away all the waffle, all the GUFF, they're selling you a watch that has a true retail value ~£199.99 if not less. EVERYTHING else they say around this is sales patter, padding.

It's the same with most selly telly e.g. TJC starting a ring off at £9,999 then it miraculously tumbles all the way down to £99.99. You're buying a £99.99 ring, nothing more nothing less.

As for the offerings from Gamages and S&E, you only have to look at the products to see they're not worth hundreds. Anyone who thinks they are needs to take a long hard look at themselves

 

[Hammy60]

We're selling you this watch for £199.99
You're saving £300 because it has an RRP of £499.99
To be honest with you, if it was for sale at £999.99 it would still be a great deal

Peel away all the waffle, all the GUFF, they're selling you a watch that has a true retail value ~£199.99 if not less. EVERYTHING else they say around this is sales patter, padding.

It's the same with most selly telly e.g. TJC starting a ring off at £9,999 then it miraculously tumbles all the way down to £99.99. You're buying a £99.99 ring, nothing more nothing less.

As for the offerings from Gamages and S&E, you only have to look at the products to see they're not worth hundreds. Anyone who thinks they are needs to take a long hard look at themselves

In theory RRPs are a good thing and generally are, especially when done right by reputable manufacturers, where it allows for a decent profit for all involved, manufacturer, retailers, etc, but it also allows a margin for retailers to be flexible with the final selling price to be able to compete in a competitive market, ie for sale events or like my local jeweler who gives a 10% discount for cash.

Where the problem comes is when you have these intermediate wholesaler brands with these over the top outrageous RRPs that have no relevance to the true value of the product being sold, the sole purpose of these RRPs is for deception, one to give the product an inflated quality value and two with such a high RRP then massive discounts can be offered giving an unwary customer the impression that they are getting the bargain of the century, a quality £1000 watch for only £100.

I'm actually surprised why these extremely inflated RRPs which bear no relevance to the actually value of the products don't come under some sort of rules with trading standards, to me it's akin to conning/ scamming people.

 

[PhaedrusR]

We're selling you this watch for £199.99
You're saving £300 because it has an RRP of £499.99
To be honest with you, if it was for sale at £999.99 it would still be a great deal

Peel away all the waffle, all the GUFF, they're selling you a watch that has a true retail value ~£199.99 if not less. EVERYTHING else they say around this is sales patter, padding.

It's the same with most selly telly e.g. TJC starting a ring off at £9,999 then it miraculously tumbles all the way down to £99.99. You're buying a £99.99 ring, nothing more nothing less.

As for the offerings from Gamages and S&E, you only have to look at the products to see they're not worth hundreds. Anyone who thinks they are needs to take a long hard look at themselves

Yeah, agreed, the salesmanship patter is bull. The Gamages site does have it at a stupid rrp £600 etc if you're unwise enough to buy it there. As said, think it is there to appeal to US/foreign buyers who want a bit of 'London' or UK and don't price compare. I think sales is a real profession and it can be ethical, but there is a concept of something is worth what somebody will pay for it!

The TJC gimmick of ridiculously high starting prices that then lower puzzles me as a sales tactic, because if you go on their website the item is already listed at the normal final price. During live TV on the app it hides the item price below the live stream and catalogue but not website.

I think TJC use it more as a filler, padding to create a TV sales programme and have a bit of tension, excitement and something to talk about as the price comes down. And I suppose there will be some TV watchers without internet who think they're getting a bargain as price drops super low.
Same tactic that price drop TV used.

It annoys me because I really like and use TJC.co.uk for homewares, and the odd jewel/stone, and they are good value, but their jewellery/ TV antics annoy me compared to their good site offers, discounts and good customer service.

 

[harrytumkins]

The start price bears no bearing on any value or perceived value of the product and is auto-generated

They used to a lot more refer to it and say such now it seems hardly ever mentioned which in a way is a good thing for the customer

I get the feeling it is still there because it has always been there and if it was still being used as a "sales tool" which it shouldn't be it would have been removed

The very rare times it is used now are presenters laughing at it "and lets get down to a reasonable ballpark"

In fairness, the prices ARE more fluid on TJC so just having one set price and never moving wouldn't work either

 

[PhaedrusR]

The start price bears no bearing on any value or perceived value of the product and is auto-generated

They used to a lot more refer to it and say such now it seems hardly ever mentioned which in a way is a good thing for the customer

I get the feeling it is still there because it has always been there and if it was still being used as a "sales tool" which it shouldn't be it would have been removed

The very rare times it is used now are presenters laughing at it "and lets get down to a reasonable ballpark"

In fairness, the prices ARE more fluid on TJC so just having one set price and never moving wouldn't work either

You could argue the stupid starting high price works best/better with jewellery/gemstones.

Most people couldn't tell a high end necklace/gemstone from a fake/paiste or a cheaper-sourced/type one. Myself included.

So when it starts at £1,999 and comes down to £39 then some might think a gold chain is good value, compared to what you might pay for a 24ct solid gold compared to the 9ct gold/plated one being offered!

I dunno, like you say, they've done it for that so keep doing it on other non- jewellery items that it doesn't make any sense on.

But when I see the UK/combo with India seller and it goes from £2k to £100 and he says it's going lower a bargain, it does create tension/excitement and gets them to talk about the item more as filler.
Otherwise they'd be stuck there for an hour just talking about a £100 necklace and what it is... With no 'drama'. This way they can talk about the prices going down, what it may or may not be worth, where you'd get it for anything like the current price, oh no it's dropping again.
It's made into TV shopping entertainment. Not just an animated moving shopping catalogue.